tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22560219.post7022263936031229023..comments2023-12-07T20:31:28.197-05:00Comments on Islands of Joy: August Poem of the MonthSørina Higginshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10907200327850346539noreply@blogger.comBlogger7125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22560219.post-22754635667924463252008-12-11T09:48:00.000-05:002008-12-11T09:48:00.000-05:00I don't think it's biblical. In the Bible, Jesus w...I don't think it's biblical. In the Bible, Jesus was able to take on our burdens because he was God, but for any mere human being, it would be impossible (just in case someone already voiced these opinions, I haven't fully read the other comments yet.) And I think that any human who believes that they can do it is, basically, putting himself in the place of Jesus, which is sinful.<BR/>On the other hand, I do believe that it's POSSIBLE for it to happen. In fact, in my opinion, literally anything and everything can happen with the help of God, therefore I see no reason why it couldn't happen, only why it wouldn't.Davidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07594923579446500677noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22560219.post-17140507658434681122008-08-21T21:18:00.000-05:002008-08-21T21:18:00.000-05:00Hi! It's been a long time, but I just HAD to comme...Hi! It's been a long time, but I just HAD to comment on this one. Warning: This post will not contain high levels of philosophy or analysis, but rather a tired mom's experience!<BR/><BR/>I am not sure how this exists in ALL relatioships that God has created, but I do believe that there is a coinherence in the mother/child relationship. I physically hurt when my child hurts. I have seen my calming voice soothe his pain away and I have seen my paniced voice make the pain worse. Perhaps this is simply behavioral reactions to an intensely emotional connection. That's certainly one way to look at it. However, I like to think it is a physical connection born out of the emotional need of both parties. Regardless of whether the pain is self-inflicted, I believe a mother feels her child's pain, just as God must have felt His child's pain on the cross (and then felt the pain of turning away His balming love). As we are made in His image, I believe it possible, at least in the case of a parent/child, that this ability is transfered to us. <BR/><BR/>So, that's my experience with coinherence, a reality that both surprised, as my son is adopted, and ravaged me, as I was unprepared. <BR/>Kim<BR/>(My Favorite Langauge Arts Teacher: I am SO tired, please excuse spelling!)Kimberly Kulphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13817983975212898897noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22560219.post-31303442946931870942008-08-10T15:49:00.000-05:002008-08-10T15:49:00.000-05:00But, Ann, I like to think of it as some kind of ma...But, Ann, I like to think of it as some kind of magic -- OK, let's say "miracle" instead. I like to think that when we are intimately connected to Christ, we can step out of the natural order of things and perform some kind of supernatural substitution. <BR/><BR/>But I don't think that's really what Williams was teaching. His prose makes that clear. Even in "Descent into Hell," he talks about how anybody can do it, and "you don't have to bring Christ in if you don't want to." Williams (and Peter Stanhope, I assume) believe that exchange is only possible because of what Christ did, the ultimate substitution, but also thinks that it's in the very fabric of how the universe, that it's how things work. <BR/><BR/>It just seems so FANTASTIC (in the most literal sense) in the novel. I want it to be more. And by wanting it to be more, I imagine I'm making it something less. An isolated, sporadic burst of supernatural something is less than an awesome weaving of all of creation and all people together in a spiritual interchange. And we're less responsible for using it if it's magic. So I need to reform!Sørina Higginshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10907200327850346539noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22560219.post-82079444395680972472008-08-10T12:01:00.000-05:002008-08-10T12:01:00.000-05:00Sorina wrote: One of Ann's and my fellow co-inhere...Sorina wrote:<BR/> One of Ann's and my fellow co-inherence list contributors told a beautiful story of how she took someone else's pain -- and immediately felt as if the pain had been passed on, as if Christ took it for her. Wow!<BR/><BR/>And Christ is the key center. Without that, one has some sort of 'magic' operation going on- with the bearer of someone's burden as 'magician'. I've persoanlly witnessed things going in this very wrong direction in healing groups. Charles Williams in his writings on Substitution would agree that Substitution and Exchange centers in Christ. All the rest is pebble in that Living Water- spreading outward.<BR/>And sometimes one is led by the Holy Spirit to leave it all to God-that certain burdens are not yours to bear. Such may be of the character of the types of injury Rosie speaks of. <BR/>Redemptive suffering? Not being a saint, I'll have to continue to stuggle with that. <BR/>Blessings packed down and overflowing,<BR/>AnnAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22560219.post-84246538633091997812008-08-08T21:10:00.000-05:002008-08-08T21:10:00.000-05:00Ann, thank you very much for sharing you amazing s...Ann, thank you very much for sharing you amazing story of healing! Wow. I guess prayer is a kind of exchange, isn't it? <BR/><BR/>And Rosie; you're right. It doesn't make much sense to exchange when the pain is self-inflicted -- but then I want to go one step further back and find out what the real suffering is that is driving a person to self injury, and take that pain for them, whether it's insecurity, a sense of numb disconnection from reality, self loathing, or whatever. One of Ann's and my fellow co-inherence list contributors told a beautiful story of how she took someone else's pain -- and immediately felt as if the pain had been passed on, as if Christ took it for her. Wow!Sørina Higginshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10907200327850346539noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22560219.post-63629149694708287482008-08-06T17:21:00.000-05:002008-08-06T17:21:00.000-05:00I"ve written in Coinherence-1, the Yahoo group tha...I"ve written in Coinherence-1, the Yahoo group that deals with Charles Williams and friends, that I think CW's concept of substitution is made too complicated. Much can be done with a hug, a kiss on a kid's hurt, a smile- caritas.<BR/>I don't personally know of anyone who has literally taken on someone's physical pain. I do know many people who have taken on in prayer someone's pain and raised that person up to God. And I certainly know of that kind of prayer helping the person in pain. It happened to me. People prayed, I believed on it, on Christ's healiing power in my life. I had been diagnosed with multiple scleroris, a disease my mother's brother died of at age 52.<BR/>I was 30, very frightened. I lost the sight in my right eye, and had trouble walking very early on after the diagnosis. People prayed for me, I meditated and prayed, my husband held steady and just loved me. One morning driving to the school where I taught French, I thought I was able to see out of my right eye. Once at school I covered the left eye and discovered that indeed I could see out of my right eye. The doctors called it spontaneous regeneration of the optic nerve. I call it a miracle and credit it all to Christ Jesus in whose name people prayed.<BR/>For me, this is the essence of substitution. Christ has died for us all- Christ was and is the Substitute. To me, Charles Williams' substitution brings us, me, too close to pride. I wouldn't know how to avoid it.<BR/>And just a word about St. Paul's quote: the exegesis is that he was speaking of suffering as an apostle protecting the other apostles, wasn't he? That is not just my interpretation of that verse and that chapter.<BR/>But one must remember, it is _all_ centered in Christ. We do nothing on our own!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22560219.post-1703083912827936542008-08-02T13:25:00.000-05:002008-08-02T13:25:00.000-05:00I think it must be harder to imagine taking on som...I think it must be harder to imagine taking on someone else's suffering when the suffering is self-inflicted, as is the case in your poem. Anyway, I'm not sure that someone who uses self-injury as a way of soothing anxious thoughts would take very well to inflicting that injury on someone else instead. It wouldn't have the same effect, and would make them feel guilty, which might only compound the original emotional pain they were trying to alleviate.<BR/><BR/>Physical and emotional pain are very closely tied. If someone does anything to alleviate someone else's emotional pain, it can help with the physical pain too. The very knowledge that someone else has promised to carry some of my emotional burden can help it to feel lighter, whether any literal transferrence of the load takes place or not. These things lend some credence to CW's ideas on the Way of Exchange.<BR/><BR/>Although Christ's suffering was final and sufficient to bring salvation and heal all the world's hurts, there is still that mysterious statement of Paul's in Col 1:24, "Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I am filling up what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church."<BR/><BR/>The Catholics have the concept of offering up their (inevitable) suffering on behalf of others. Richard John Neuhaus writes in <I>As I Lay Dying</I> of "the slow dying of Pope John [XXIII]. It was announced one day that he was offering his sufferings on behalf of the hungry of the world, the next day on behalf of prisoners, the next on behalf of unborn children. And so it went from day to day. He was going about his dying with a kind of craftsmanship, putting his dying to good use, wasting nothing." Neuhaus writes, of Col 1:24, "Not, of coruse, that there was anything deficient in Christ's suffering, but he allows us to have a share in his redeeming work, which can only be done through suffering." Neuhaus writes elsewhere (in <I>Death on a Friday Afternoon</I>), "When Jesus calls us, he calls us to come and die. We will die anyway. The question is whether we will die senselessly or as companions and coworkers of the crucified and risen Lord."<BR/><BR/>Here are some more thoughts on this topic, called "<A HREF="http://www.speroforum.com/site/wiki.asp?id=RedemptiveSuffering" REL="nofollow">Redemptive Suffering</A>" in Catholic theology.Rosie Pererahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09554035581795923555noreply@blogger.com