tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22560219.post6344106747241611864..comments2023-12-07T20:31:28.197-05:00Comments on Islands of Joy: Entanglement, Affirmation, and NegationSørina Higginshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10907200327850346539noreply@blogger.comBlogger6125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22560219.post-53874968126401921812009-01-03T05:50:00.000-05:002009-01-03T05:50:00.000-05:00Louisa--you are wise to not jump in too quickly. I...Louisa--you are wise to not jump in too quickly. I haven't felt "ready" for <I>Dark Night of the Soul</I> either. I'm not even sure I was ready to read <I>Interior Castle</I> and <I>Cloud of Unknowing</I> when I read them. Be aware that lots of writers will talk about the "dark night of the soul" as being depression, but it's something quite different. I know enough now to realize that it's different, and no longer to glorify depression as being that state of mind where we're supposed to yearn for God more and more as he draws us closer to him by disappearing on us. I've gotten out of depression through more helpful means. But that's as far as I've gone on the mystical journey. I'm not saying I won't ever get interested in going further on it, but now that I've got the energy once again to do other things than sit around and mope and wonder where God is, I'm not exactly drawn to follow that journey as far as it can go, at least not right now. It's probably worth pursuing, but cautiously. Let's just put it this way: "there be dragons here."<BR/><BR/>Meditation is a whole 'nother ball of wax. There is some overlap between mediation and what the mystics do, but meditation and contemplation (of the mystical "way of negation" variety) are not the same thing. Meditation is much broader and includes meditating on Scripture (<I>lectio divina</I> is a way of doing that), as well as all kinds of not particularly Christian (though not necessarily anti-Christian) forms of meditation -- those found in Eastern practices, yoga, etc. A lot of these people are "inspiringly peaceful and good to be around," whether they are mystics in the St. John of the Cross sense or not. But there be dragons here as well.<BR/><BR/>I think a few minutes a day of intentionally quieting down of all the racing thoughts in our minds in order to be attentive to God, what the Quakers call "centering down" (the first three Google hits on that phrase are informative), can be helpful. I remember to do it very infrequently, but it is beneficial when I do. It's usually at the end of the day, when I'm getting ready for sleep. I slow my breathing down and pay attention to it for a while (to take my focus off whatever is still left on my "to do" list for the day, which I had to abandon). Then I review my day and ask God to show me the points at which I was most attentive to him, or doing things which were most nourishing for me spiritually, and also to remind me of those points at which I was farthest from him. I reflect on this (without any self-recrimination) and pray through them and hand them over to God and then wait in his presence for a while. If I drift off to sleep in this state, it's not a problem. The key is to be non-judgmental toward myself (leave the judging to him, for "will not the judge of all the world do right?") and rest in God's love. What better way to rest in his love than to sleep? ("He gives to his beloved even in their sleep" -- or "he gives sleep to his beloved" depending on the translation of Ps 127:2). And Psalm 4:8 "I will lie down and sleep in peace, for you alone, O LORD, make me dwell in safety."<BR/><BR/>On that note, time for me to go to bed...<BR/><BR/>Blessings to you as you seek out the way of meditation, a lifelong journey.Rosie Pererahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09554035581795923555noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22560219.post-71600418667126030602009-01-02T12:22:00.000-05:002009-01-02T12:22:00.000-05:00Rosie--thanks so much for this reading list! I was...Rosie--thanks so much for this reading list! <BR/><BR/>I was actually about to buy <I>The Dark Night of the Soul</I> a couple months ago and decided against it after reading a review on Amazon. The crowd was falling into the two camps of "it's amazing" and "it's hard to read," and then I came to this one reviewer, who wrote: <BR/><BR/>"Don't read this until you're ready." <BR/><BR/>I just tried to find the review again now and couldn't, so I can't remember how you were supposed to tell if you're ready, just that I obviously wasn't! <BR/><BR/>Oh, shoot, maybe it was <I>The Cloud of Unknowing.</I> (I just snuck back to Amazon, and yes, it was.) <BR/>The reviewer's advice was, start with Nouwen (who I happened to be reading at the time) and Merton (who I still haven't read), THEN St. John of the Cross, THEN, eventually, <I>Cloud of Unknowing</I>.<BR/><BR/>I do resonate with what you said in your earlier post about feeling that you got weird when you tried to be a mystic. I'm afraid of jumping too deeply into something that might actually be a distraction.<BR/><BR/>But the people I have met who meditate are inspiringly peaceful and good to be around, which keeps me thinking maybe I should really try to make that part of my life.<BR/><BR/>Anyway--just hardly putting a toe in--I read the Updike article and have downloaded the one on apophatic theology in the classical world, and plan on returning to your list as I go. Many thanks.Louisahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13447439340767588618noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22560219.post-10996279824678492842008-12-16T21:32:00.000-05:002008-12-16T21:32:00.000-05:00The experience of the silence of God (which most o...The experience of the silence of God (which most of us have encountered if we're really honest about it) is what has driven me to explore the classic Christian writers on the via negativa. I was intrigued by their claim that this silence of God was actually a sign that you were moving up the ladder in terms of spiritual maturity and silence was actually a better way of experiencing God, since his characteristics are ineffable. The explanation continues that new believers need a more tangible sense of God's presence, so God gives that to them, but he intentionally withholds it from us as we grow in faith, for he knows it draws us to seek him more fervently. This kind of cosmic lovers' hide-and-seek is depicted in Song of Solomon 2:8-3:4.<BR/><BR/>I love the sound of silence anyway, so I found this whole idea both enticing and also exasperating. It seems capricious of God to play hide-and-seek with us, if indeed that's what he's doing. I've dug deeper, because of my hunger for nearness to God. I have taken a break from my quest for the time being, but discussions like this bring it back to the fore.<BR/><BR/>Some suggested readings if you're interested in exploring this subject in more depth:<BR/><BR/>Primary sources:<BR/><BR/><B><A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/dp/0870612417" REL="nofollow"><I>The Interior Castle</I></A>, by Teresa of Avila</B><BR/><BR/>Teresa, a Spanish mystic and Carmelite sister, describes the soul as a castle with a series of "dwelling places" that you progress through as you go closer into the center of your soul in prayer, towards ultimate union with God.<BR/><BR/><B><A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/dp/0140447628" REL="nofollow"><I>The Cloud of Unknowing</I></A>, by Anonymous</B><BR/><BR/>A classic in apophatic devotional literature, probably written by some unknown Carthusian monk in the latter half of the 14th century. Talks about "piercing the cloud of unknowing" (that inability to know God for who he is) with the "dart of longing love". Introduces the contemplative life, but says it isn't for everyone. Very balanced.<BR/><BR/><B><A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/dp/160206279X" REL="nofollow"><I>The Dark Night of the Soul</I></A>, by St. John of the Cross</B><BR/><BR/>I haven't actually read this yet, but it's one of the great classics on this subject.<BR/><BR/>The above three are all available in several good modern translations, not just the ones I've included links to.<BR/><BR/>Secondary sources:<BR/><BR/>Here is an article explaining the early origins of Christian apophatic theology:<BR/><A HREF="http://bahai-library.org/personal/jw/my.papers/apophatic.html" REL="nofollow">Saying Nothing about No-Thing: Apophatic Theology in the Classical World</A><BR/><BR/>Here's some more <A HREF="http://people.bu.edu/wwildman/WeirdWildWeb/courses/wphil/lectures/wphil_theme05.htm" REL="nofollow">background info</A>.<BR/><BR/>And finally if you love literature, which any reader of this blog must, surely, here are some poets and writers who have wrestled with the via negativa and/or the apparent absence of God:<BR/><BR/><A HREF="http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3777/is_/ai_n8849162" REL="nofollow">Talking to a silent God: Donne's Holy Sonnets and the Via Negativa</A> by Lawrence Beaston<BR/><BR/><A HREF="http://www.journeywithjesus.net/PoemsAndPrayers/RS_Thomas_Via_Negativa.shtml" REL="nofollow">Via Negativa</A> (poem) by R.S. Thomas, probably the greatest Welsh Christian poet who ever lived.<BR/><BR/><A HREF="http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1058/is_n18_v112/ai_16997241" REL="nofollow">John Updike's literary via negativa</A> (<I>Christian Century</I>, 24 May 1995)<BR/><BR/>There's some good stuff on <I>deus absconditus</I> (the hidden God, or God unknowable by the human mind) in this article on the absence of God as a character in literature:<BR/><A HREF="http://www.illuminos.com/mem/selectPapers/christianityAndLiterature.html" REL="nofollow">Christianity and Literature: Covertly Public, Overtly Private</A>, by Martin Marty (<I>Christianity and Literature</I>, Vol. 47, No. 3 (Spring 1998)).<BR/><BR/>As you can see, you've piqued my interest in this topic which has been lying dormant under my bed for the past couple of years... :-)Rosie Pererahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09554035581795923555noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22560219.post-8279414739663749012008-12-16T19:50:00.000-05:002008-12-16T19:50:00.000-05:00Rosie--Thank you! All that was very helpful, parti...Rosie--Thank you! All that was very helpful, particularly the point that Christianity's use of the via negativa is mostly a method of clearing out the unhealthy clutter....That reminds me of fasting: apparently (I'm no expert) occasional fasts are a good idea for body and soul, but no one is recommending that you never eat again.Louisahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13447439340767588618noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22560219.post-81555820483052583432008-12-16T16:20:00.000-05:002008-12-16T16:20:00.000-05:00I have done a lot of reading on the via negativa. ...I have done a lot of reading on the via negativa. I know that the mystics who pursued it were capable of experiencing profound spiritual ecstasy through bypassing their rational need for positive images, and tapping instead into an inner capacity to connect with the Spirit of God more immediately (as in "without mediation"). It is apparently only the culmination of a long life of practice that gets people to the stage where they can experience that. I've attempted to practice some of the earlier steps, but I must admit that the ardor of such a life does not appeal to me, for the payoff is uncertain and potentially a long way off. I also wonder sometimes whether it's all a psychological trick their minds are playing on them. I get weird when I try to be a mystic, so I'm better off not going there.<BR/><BR/>Wikipedia has a fairly decent section on the <A HREF="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negative_theology#In_the_Christian_tradition" REL="nofollow">via negativa in Christian theology</A>, including this excerpt:<BR/><BR/>"Mother Theresa's own spiritual struggles have correspondences in the apophatic tradition.<BR/><BR/>"C. S. Lewis, in his book Miracles, advocates the use of negative theology when first thinking about God, in order to cleanse our minds of misconceptions. He goes on to say we must then refill our minds with the truth about God, untainted by mythology, bad analogies or false mind-pictures.<BR/><BR/>"It should be noted that while negative theology is used in Christianity as a means of dispelling misconceptions about God, and of approaching Him beyond the limits of human reasoning, an uninformed or extreme negative theology can lead one outside the pale of Christianity. The Bible teaches emphatically that God exists, and speaks of God as Father, as Son and as Holy Spirit. The Christian God has certain positive attributes, and Christians believe that these are knowable to men in some measure, if only in a limited way. Thus, Christians believe God is indeed good, but that His goodness is above and beyond our understanding of goodness and is thus only partially comprehensible to us."Rosie Pererahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09554035581795923555noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22560219.post-20492910694672023282008-12-16T15:42:00.000-05:002008-12-16T15:42:00.000-05:00wow--I had never thought to connect these things. ...wow--I had never thought to connect these things. Your comparison is right on, I think. Much food for thought.<BR/><BR/>Like you, I tend in the Way of Affirmation direction, and for the same reason. It seems to me that human minds work in terms of images and in trying to follow the Way of Negation, Bohr and his followers simply prevented themselves from seeing certain interesting logical inconsistencies or mysteries in the theoretical framework they were using. Einstein and Schrödinger explicitly talked about how fuzzy thinking could develop from not checking your thinking against a specific model. (And they were the ones to frame entanglement in a clear way, and not Bohr, because of this.)<BR/>Of course Bohr made the equally valid point that tying your thinking to a model can stop you from following what's actually going on.<BR/><BR/>The dichotomy of Affirmation vs. Negation reminded me about a book on Paul I was browsing recently. The author was comparing Jesus to Paul in the context of rural Jewish thought vs. the ideas that were percolating into Judaism from Plato, etc., which would tend to be held by more urban and educated Jews. His claim was that the Jewish perspective literally does not separate between body and soul, and so tends to affirm the physical as part of the spiritual, whereas whatever form of Greek thought which Paul inherited separates body and soul, somewhat devaluing the body, and the physical world in general, in that separation.<BR/><BR/>Possibly this would relate to Jesus's penchant for parables (images) and Paul's tendency to present things in a more abstract way (though of course there are some famous metaphors due to Paul).<BR/><BR/>I'd love to be enlightened by anyone who knows more about these subjects!Louisahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13447439340767588618noreply@blogger.com