tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22560219.post4402570041156472829..comments2023-12-07T20:31:28.197-05:00Comments on Islands of Joy: Charles Williams Summary #1: The Silver Stair (1912)Sørina Higginshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10907200327850346539noreply@blogger.comBlogger8125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22560219.post-27349216094574602742012-07-25T13:50:18.943-05:002012-07-25T13:50:18.943-05:00Thanks for this; it was an excellent read, and it&...Thanks for this; it was an excellent read, and it's good to know that I'm not the only one still enjoying these forgotten poems.Kasperhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09005587551115301935noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22560219.post-36216532868082480702012-07-05T19:28:23.744-05:002012-07-05T19:28:23.744-05:00I think I do mean balance: If an individual Christ...I think I do mean balance: If an individual Christian finds herself practicing Negation in every area of her life, it is a good idea to intentionally spend some time enjoying the good gifts of God's creation as a means of experiencing Him; if she finds herself indulging in too much hedonism, perhaps it is time for some kinds of abstinence -- to maintain balance. And those of an indulgent or addictive personality must intentionally choose to avoid certain essentially good creations, or limit their use/intake of those creations, to remain balanced. And those of an abstemious nature must avoid self-imposed penance, and need to make sure to take care of themselves, etc. I do think I mean balance. <br /><br />But your question is a good one, and my use of "balance" does not exclude the possibility that Williams was also trying to negotiate the [at least] historical tension between the two. And at any given moment, in any one particular choice, there is tension. As Lewis said, both celibacy and marriage are good, but a man must choose between them; he cannot have both. So there is tension, resolved by choice rather than by balance. <br /><br />And true success in negotiating the tension and maintaining the balance throughout life would, I suppose, be a kind of dialectic (in the way you use it), because a whole new kind of healthy devotional practice and life of lived love, service, and pleasure would come from it. <br /><br />What do you think of that?Sørina Higginshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10907200327850346539noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22560219.post-89593756791156039992012-07-05T19:07:46.774-05:002012-07-05T19:07:46.774-05:00Intriguing. Do you mean balance, or possibly tensi...Intriguing. Do you mean balance, or possibly tension or dialectic? The first, balance is a negotiating of the two where they remain in a fair light to one another. Tension is the honest reality that they don't fit in balance and yet remain in relationship to one another. Dialectic (in the way I use it here) means that something new comes from the the tension or balance.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22560219.post-3049394195560563172012-07-05T18:45:59.520-05:002012-07-05T18:45:59.520-05:00I think it's really sad that there's such ...I think it's really sad that there's such bad teaching at various stages of Christianity, that leads to the destruction of things that are not evil. <br /><br />And here's something else bad, and deplorable. Practitioners of one of the Ways tend to condemn followers of the other Way, claiming that theirs is the only Way. <br /><br />For instance, I've been in two different Christian small group settings, each studying a book that advocated the Negative Way as the only way -- but, what's more, did so in an historically ignorant manner, without labeling, contextualizing, or clarifying their positions. Each went about building up a case for a Via Negativa. One spoke at great length about getting rid of all our mental pictures of God, stripping away all metaphors and similes for Him, and meditating on just God Himself. <br /><br />I ask, what do I meditate on if I strip away all images and metaphors? Nothing? Nothing is an image, and a quite idolatrous one at that. <br /><br />The other spent several (poorly written) chapters talking about all the "idols" that get in the way of our knowing God: jobs, dreams, goals, ambitions, hobbies, spouses, children.... While that is true, I've thought that the solution is to love God THROUGH these, by means of submitting them to His will -- not by getting rid of these things, or ceasing to care about them. <br /><br />So obviously in these cases I am a follower of the Via Positiva, but mostly I just desire for all Christians to acknowledge the value of both Ways, and to do so in a manner that is intelligent and historically informed, without condemning those who follow the other Way. <br /><br />And clearly I need to modify my judgmental position against the Way of Rejection. <br /><br />That's one thing I like about Williams: I don't think he got the balance right, but at least he acknowledged that both Ways were valid.Sørina Higginshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10907200327850346539noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22560219.post-1004165728769603002012-07-02T12:16:27.290-05:002012-07-02T12:16:27.290-05:00Brenton, thanks for that story. It brought back me...Brenton, thanks for that story. It brought back memories! I was in a Bible study back in the 80s or early 90s that was very much influenced by Bill Gothard who told people that all rock music was evil because of its beat. Anything with an "off beat" was bad because it was a disordering of the created order. Even jazz was bad. I felt pricked to the heart about my collection of rock records and brought them out during one of our Bible study sessions and confessed my use of them and broke them all up in front of everyone. It felt like a sort of purging, and I got affirmation from those I was with. So yes, I can see it as gorging on the positive feelings one gets from destroying something one thinks is evil. But I felt sick about it a few years later when I realized how twisted Bill Gothard's theology is. And I eventually bought back on CD many of those albums I'd had.Rosie Pererahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09554035581795923555noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22560219.post-41524147640459356562012-07-02T08:19:04.276-05:002012-07-02T08:19:04.276-05:00What a great response! I get the separation.
By i...What a great response! I get the separation. <br />By iconoclasm, I meant the idea more generally. But think to the early iconoclasts roaming through Europe stripping places of worship of images. It is both selective and a kind of gorging. <br />It is selective in its rejection of art, stripping places of painting and sculptures but not rejecting architecture and poetry--space and word were protected while image and symbol were rejected. Yet not all symbols were rejected: the cross merely went from Friday to Sunday, but the symbol remained. The empty space of God in the gothic rafters remained untouched. It was selective. <br />And the gorging: a personal story. I discovered Christ at a small camp (then discovered Christ was in all my reality). It was 1990, and the Christian subculture was just beginning. At some point in the genuine moment of conversion and revival for the 19 of us, someone brought some porn out of his bag and set it in the fire, saying that it got in the way of his Christ-faith. Others did the same: some porn, some bad books, rock 'n' roll tapes, cigarettes and weed. <br />But I had nothing to burn. Well, I had Stephen King's "It," but I really liked it. So I had this black book that I had tried reading and found it to be horribly difficult and arcane. So I brought it to the fire's edge to rip pages out for my own purging of sin. <br />It was, of course, the King James Bible I brought unwittingly, and was caught by a counselor, who explained things a little better for me. But the point was my purging was not actually a purging but a gorging: I wanted more of the experience I had just had, I wanted more of the community, and I wanted things right that were not necessarily wrong. <br />It is essence of all eating disorders, these three broken ideas. It is a gorging. <br />And I think the iconoclasts are gorging on these three broken ideas. It is indulgent, and leads to a different kind of obesity.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22560219.post-52336225183983879312012-06-30T10:18:28.818-05:002012-06-30T10:18:28.818-05:00Thanks, Brenton. You're right, iconoclasm does...Thanks, Brenton. You're right, iconoclasm does not always equal asceticism; nor, for that matter, does the Via Negativa always equal active iconoclasm. Here's a bit about that from a paper of mine: <br /><br />In application (if not in theory), the Two Ways lead to attitudes towards and specific practices of sexuality, aesthetics, culture, and community (Carabine 8). The Cappadocian “fathers,” for instance, wrote a great deal about the virtue of virginity (Pelikan 87); they believed that human nature would be freed of sexuality when it was glorified (Pelikan 88) and tended to prefer the soul over the body (Pelikan 124). Although the apophatic way began as (merely) “a linguistic and methodological procedure…. it became a way of life as well - asceticism. However, one did not necessarily lead to the other” (Horne). In short, “apophaticism and asceticism are historically related but formally separable” (Trueman). In that historical relationship, the apophatic way has lead to voluntary celibacy, poverty, and solitude; vows of silence; and the rejection of artistic products as ways to God. In that historical relationship, the apophatic way has lead to voluntary celibacy, poverty, and solitude; vows of silence; and the rejection of artistic products as ways to God. <br /><br />I'd like to hear more about your idea that iconoclasm is a "kind of gorging"; can you say more?Sørina Higginshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10907200327850346539noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22560219.post-53501651701193394332012-06-29T05:36:09.550-05:002012-06-29T05:36:09.550-05:00Well written, Sorina. I'm wondering, though, w...Well written, Sorina. I'm wondering, though, why does does iconoclasm=asceticism? The loss of images (iconoclasm) is another kind of gorging, isn't it?<br />BrentonAnonymousnoreply@blogger.com